412: How to Stop Procrastinating with Monica Packer

Introduction 

You're listening to Biceps After Babies Radio Episode 412.

Hello and welcome to Biceps After Babies Radio. A podcast for ladies who know that fitness is about so much more than pounds lost or PR's. It's about feeling confident in your skin and empowered in your life. I'm your host Amber Brueseke, a registered nurse, personal trainer, wife and mom of four. Each week my guests and I will excite and motivate you to take action in your own personal fitness as we talk about nutrition, exercise, mindset, personal development and executing life with conscious intention. If your goal is to look, feel and be strong and experience transformation from the inside out, you my friend are in the right place. Thank you for tuning in. Now, let's jump into today's episode.

Hey, hey, hey. Welcome back to another episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm your host, Amber Brueseke, and today's podcast guest is Monica Packer. She has been on the podcast a couple of times before. She's fantastic and is a habit and identity coach that has so much wisdom when it comes to making changes in your life. She was last on the podcast back on episode 330, which is a great one to go back and re-listen to where we really talked a lot about habits and how to integrate new habits into your life. Today, I'm bringing her back on the podcast to really focus on procrastination. This is something that I feel like I haven't quite addressed this topic in the 400 episodes that we've done of how do we fix procrastination? Why do we do procrastination? What's the benefit of it? And then what is the solve for it? And Monica is the perfect person to have this conversation with because she has spent so much time thinking about and working with clients on how to implement new habits, how to get past that block of procrastination. And her and I, in this episode, I loved our conversation because Monica really brought nuance to this conversation. I feel like sometimes people are so superficial when it comes to procrastination or habits or just change in general. And we went deep on this episode and we talked about procrastination as it relates to perfectionism. 

We talked about revenge, bedtime procrastination, which I think will relate to a lot of you listening. We talked about how to get past the procrastination that sometimes comes in our health and fitness journey where you want to start working out, but you keep procrastinating or you want to start tracking your food, but you keep procrastinating and how to get past that. One of my favorite things that talked about in this episode was how phones play a role in procrastination. And we talked a lot about the difference between shame and compassion and how we work from a place of compassion and how that can create so much more change than working from a place of shame. There's so much in this podcast episode. And also if you want to continue the conversation with Monica, she has written a book that is coming out in September. Can't recommend her stuff enough. I have pre-ordered the book. It's called Sticky Habits and you can pre-order it at stickyhabitsbook.com or you can go to her website, which is aboutprogress.com and it's linked there as well. But I would love for you to pick up the book, read it when it comes out, and then we can continue this conversation. I think there is so much more conversation to be had that's in the book and I can't wait to read it and I can't wait to continue this conversation with you, with my clients, and here on the podcast with Monica. So without further ado, let's jump into that interview. 

Amber B 03:41

I am so excited to welcome back to the podcast, Monica Packer. Welcome, Monica.

Monica Packer 03:47

Thanks for having me back. That's like even more special than coming for the first or second time. That's like a very special thing.

Amber B 03:53

Yeah, because it's like the first time you don't know what you're going to get, but then the second time you invite them back, you know what you're getting and you're saying, I want more of that. And I do. I do want more of that.

Monica Packer 04:01

Yeah. I appreciate it. 

Amber B 04:03

So the last time you were on the episode was way back at 330, episode 330, which is a fantastic episode. If you're looking for another one to like binge on and get more information about all the stuff that Monica talks about, 330 is a great episode. But catch us up. What's big in your world these days? 

Monica Packer 04:20

Oh, I love this question. I was thinking about it. I'm like, what is new with my world? I think it's more of the same, but I mean, to be more specific, my kids are getting older. I have five kids and we're now well into the teenage years and still have a good spread. I have a three-year-old too. So I'm like, I feel like I have two feet in two worlds. And so that's an adventure. We're about to start summer with them, but professionally too, I have written a book, which I know last time we got to talk about habits and I really fire hosed your community about that, but now it's in book form and that's been professionally what I've been working on for the last several years. So it's coming up. It's really exciting. 

Amber B 04:57

So exciting. I'm always curious with writing a book. Is this something that you've like wanted to do for a really long time or was it something more recent or talk to me about like the desire or the dream to write a book? 

Monica Packer 05:08

Sure. I think almost everybody has that one part of them that's like, what if I had a book that got published or that would be really cool. And I've always been a big reader. I love to read and I love to read all genres and I'm your self-help reader. I'm your fiction. I'm your fantasy. I'm your poetry. I just read everything. So I've always been drawn to it, but it really hit me about the book when I was, I had been teaching this material for several years and I was on a walk at my in-laws house and I'm in Northern California. And I was just had a second to actually think. And then that was like one of the few Eureka moments that was like, sticky habits needs to be a book. And I was like, sticky habits needs to be a book. And then it was just like off from there. 

Amber B 05:48

So exciting. Give us like a, give me like a 30 second intro. Like what is the book about? Who's it for? How's it going to help? 

Monica Packer 05:56

Sticky habits is for women specifically, busy women who I don't know, a non-busy woman who are tired of failing at habits without realizing that the habit formation methods are failing them. And my book is designed for women specifically who deal with all the caretaking tasks that come from invisible labor. It doesn't mean you have to have kids in the home at all who have to do habits differently. 

Amber B 06:19

That's so good. What is, what is the, the thesis is, is that you've been maybe failing at habits, but it's because you're doing them in a way that isn't actually going to support you and work for you as a busy woman. So what are some of the things, what are some of the, I guess what I'm trying to pull out is a woman listening to this, maybe she's not even aware that like this is going on in her life. What would be some of the symptoms that she would start to notice that would be like, oh, this is a book that I need to read. Maybe I didn't even realize I need to read it because I'm experiencing this XYZ in my life. 

Monica Packer 06:54

I would say this woman has a lot in her life that she is really showing up for and doing a great job with for her work, for her kids, for her home management. Like maybe she's really showing up, but for herself, she often finds herself on the sidelines. So for the habits that she knows she needs, whether it's an exercise habit or nutrition habit, or even just like a chill habit, a self-care habit, a habit that helps her rest. Like she always has these good intentions, but she can never seem to follow through. And when she follows through, tries to with the advice that we have out there in the, in the Zeitgeist and in the most popular books too, she gets frustrated because no matter what, it seems that she gets derailed, her consistency falls off, or she's not able to sustain it, or she does so with a big cost, like maybe other areas in her life begin to suffer. That's what I would say she should watch for.

Amber B 07:47

Oh, that's really good. Yeah. I think it's so, it's really common in our society, especially as women, especially as mothers that we show up for everybody else, but we kind of are the last on the list and implementing those habits get kind of pushed to the wayside, or we kind of have tried to do them and aren't successful. So I think that that's really a relatable experience for a lot of people who are probably listening to, to the episode. 

Monica Packer 08:10

And with that too, if I could add one more thing, Amber, I think a lot of us, the reason we are last in our list is because our responsibilities are so often tied to people and people matter and we need to do a good job. So much of that work is undervalued, but we put ourselves down on the list because that's just another habit we fall into. Or because what we would prioritize for ourselves doesn't seem to be productive in terms of what we normally need to be productive for. So while what I teach about habits, and again, that last episode we recorded is a chock full of that information, it can help with productivity and being better at performance in all areas of your life. It's not about productivity. It's about feeling like yourself. That's the heart of the book. It's not about, here's another way that you can squeeze out more out of your day in service of all your responsibilities. It's about you. 

Amber B 09:04

Yeah, that's so big. Today, I really wanted to focus with you on procrastination, because I think this is akin, there's a lot of overlap with habits. There's a lot of overlap with starting a new thing when we procrastinate. And so I think that this conversation that you and I can have will be really, really valuable and relate to a lot of the things that you teach. I always like to start making sure that you, me, and our listeners are on the same page, because we use words sometimes and they mean different things to different people. So we're going to talk about procrastination today on the episode. What do you mean when you say procrastination? 

Monica Packer 09:39

Procrastination to me can look different on the outside, person to person. But on the inside, it's about delaying. It's about putting things off, avoidance, really. And on the outside, it can look like someone who is numbing out, who is really getting sucked into the phone, or games, or getting swept up in other things that they don't necessarily intend to, but they get carried away. Or it can look really productive. They're just, suddenly, they are cleaning out their hall closets, and the garage, and doing all these other productive things instead of the actual task. And I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but procrastination is less about avoiding a task, and it's more about avoiding the feelings that you've associated with it, or meaning the history that you've attached to that same task, or a similar task in your past. 

Amber B 10:30

Yeah. Okay. Let's pull on that thread a little bit, because I think that is a really deep concept that maybe… I want to make sure it doesn't go over people. So what do you mean when you say it's avoidance of the feeling? 

Monica Packer 10:45

So let's say there's something you're avoiding. I often avoid calling insurance. I have some kids with special needs, and I have a long history of those phone calls just being so long, and intensive, and people telling me different things, and then being told that I wasn't told something before. So I have found myself avoiding that. It's not the task itself. Yeah, it's time intensive. It's annoying, but it's the feelings, mostly, of frustration, of not being heard, of being put through the wringer. Those are the feelings I'm avoiding. But if it's even something like… Even though I tend to have the same kind of habit of moving my body every day, and I still get up every single morning around the same time, but I still see, oh, I'm puttering around the house. I'm suddenly… Like I did this this morning. I was suddenly making granola for my family real quick before I started my workout. Yes, I had to just really quick make everyone some granola, because I knew I wanted them to have yogurt for breakfast. And yeah, it's something like that. So it may be very significant. There's this huge task, and you are spending not just minutes, but hours, to days, to sometimes weeks, or even months avoiding a bigger task. Or it could be just momentary like that, where in the moment, even though this is something I do, or I need to do, or I'm going to follow through, and I did, I find myself puttering, or somehow avoiding it, because it's hard. Even though I enjoy working out, sometimes I'm just really tired, and I'd rather delay that feeling of having to get my energy up and do something. 

Amber B 12:18

Yeah. I assume that it can be sometimes really tricky to identify the fact that you're procrastinating, because I think you're pretty insightful. And so you can start to notice yourself, oh, I want to be working out, but instead I'm over here making granola. But we tend to self-justify very easily. So in your mind, it could be like, well, this needs to be done, and this is for the kids, and they need to have a healthy breakfast. And so I think so often women can procrastinate, but not even see it in themselves. So again, you're pretty self-aware, and I think you do this all the time, so you can say, oh gosh, that's me procrastinating. But if someone isn't quite there, how do they start to identify the difference between a legitimate, my kids need breakfast, which is very logical, and yes, we can all agree that that's true, and then also start to notice the sneaky way that we're procrastinating, starting something that we're trying to avoid.

Monica Packer 13:11

Yeah, you're right. It's almost like we put anesthesia on ourselves in the moment, because we're like, don't feel those feelings. Let's take on these other feelings. I think it does come down to awareness, because the truth is, is you'll never be procrastination free. It is a human tendency, period. So we will all procrastinate regularly, but it's to the degree that it becomes a problem. So if you find it is a repetitive cycle in your life, and it is an entrenched behavior that is a significant problem, then of course, I would really urge you to just try to be more aware, period, and try to notice the patterns, or the different tasks, and what's going on with that. But all of us, even just momentarily, will need some awareness. I didn't even notice how I put it in the oven. I was like, okay, now I'm feeling this urgency to do something else around the house. Now I'm like, oh gosh, I need a hurrying vacuum. 

Amber B 14:11

The urgency, you know how important the stat vacuuming is.

Monica Packer 14:14

Yes. Yeah, someone's going to die if I don't vacuum up these crumbs. I think it's just become more of a general mindset for me to just be aware of it in general. Like, oh, okay, that's popping up for me now. But again, if it's more of a routine thing, it's become a habit of mind and body in ways that are really significantly affecting your life, then it still comes back to that same thing, awareness, but you're just going to have to be hyper aware and just really noticing the patterns, because there are patterns at play that if you are aware of them, then you're going to be able to better work with them. And even working with them will still come back to the in the moment.

Amber B 14:51

Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. I mean, I tell my clients a lot, like look for patterns, right? That's where we can kind of dig in is like when there's a pattern and it's a pattern that isn't helping you, it isn't supporting you in doing the things you want to do, then we look at the pattern and that's a really good indication that there's probably something there that is that we could uncover. You mentioned that a lot of times we procrastinate because we're avoiding the feeling that we're associating with that task. How does that help? Once you identify, okay, hey, I am avoiding this task. You can maybe are present to the feeling that you are also avoiding. How does that help us move forward towards maybe doing that task or maybe not doing that task? I don't know. What's the next step? 

Monica Packer 15:33

There's some brain science about how when you even identify a feeling, you're able to better deal with it. So even just calling it out is super helpful to helping you actually think through it more realistically. But I do have a couple of practical ways they can do it. One is to pair a yay feeling with a blah task. So when I call insurance now, I pop in a piece of dark chocolate or I watch a show because I'm going to be on hold. So I might as well just watch a show while I'm sitting there with the hold music on and have it on very small. So pairing a yay feeling with a blah tasks help you do it. I do this in the morning because I found it was becoming a pattern that I was delaying my workout. So one of the things that I do is my workout, I always have different podcasts that I only say for working out because I love them so much and they're not serious. They're about pop culture and it kind of feels like this little treat that motivates me to get up there and do that. So pairing is really, really helpful. Another thing though is we talked about we delay because of the emotion. Sometimes the emotion is I'm tired and this thing is going to take energy, so much energy. And it's so overwhelming because it's not just one task. It's 50. I often find that when I look at an area in my home that needs to be organized or restructured, things moved around, papers put away, like sorted through and then taking them to the thrift store there's so many layers to it that that's part of why I'm delaying is because I'm avoiding the exhaustion that will come with it or the energy will require for me. So this is where we can do something to start. We focus just on the first step. And with that, the first step, you can put a limit on it. You can say, I'm only doing the first task today, or I'm only doing the first three steps, or you can put a time limit. I'm going to work on this for 10 minutes. You can do it so small that you just start going. And what's great about this is doing something to start creates momentum and momentum is ever increasing energy. A ball of motion stays in motion. So you often find you can do a little bit more, but even if not, and you just want to be really beholden to the time limit or the other limit that you put on yourself, it will still reshape the way you see yourself. You'll still have momentum in other ways, uh, internally too, about like, Hey, I actually follow through. I'm a person who follows through. So you'd be more inclined to do the next step the next day or the next week, however you decide to do it.

Amber B 18:10

That's so good. So I'm hearing that oftentimes one of the reasons we procrastinate is because we have made the thing that we're trying to do huge. Cause we're not just thinking about step one. We're thinking about steps one through 50. And if I start step one, then I have to go all the through to 50. And what you're saying is like, no, you actually don't. If we just started with step one, time limited it, and then you can set it down. Then it's much more easy for us to get our brain on board to say, okay, I can do this step one. I'm going to pair it with a yay. I love that pair with a yay activity. I'm going to time limit it. And then our brain can kind of wrap itself around doing it. And then we create momentum and maybe you will keep going, but it's also okay. If you don't, because you've done more in that 10 minutes than you would have done had you continued just to procrastinate it. 

Monica Packer 18:52

And you believe yourself next time.

Amber B 18:54

Yes. So good.

Monica Packer 18:55

When you say I can do this and I can just do the first step or I can just time it for 10 minutes and then I can move on. I had a client do that with this giant stack of papers she needed to go through. And we started with just 10 papers a day. And she is a perfectionist that didn't know she was a perfectionist because she's like, look at all these piles. Look at all these things that I don't do. Look at all the ways I procrastinate. And I'm like, no, you are a classic perfectionist because this is what we do. We delay because we want to do the whole thing or we want to do it perfectly. Or we think we're going to fail or we're waiting for the right time or their energy or even the money. And instead you have to remember it's messy. It's not going to go perfectly. You're not going to get it all done right away. There's always going to be more. I mean, we all know that about home tasks alone. Like I'm going to sweep the floor again in 30 minutes. Like if I am always being urgent about that kind of task. Right. So starting with just 10 papers a day, it not only helped her finally get to the bottom of that pile and actually sooner than she thought she would, because she was like 10 minutes or 10 papers a day. I got, that's nothing. I want the hundred papers. But by the time she got through it, it was faster than she thought it would be. And she also saw herself differently than she did before. And it felt like not just a shift to how she was approaching tasks she was procrastinating, but a shift in how she saw herself because procrastination isn't just a behavior on the outside. It's the internal pattern of how we see ourselves too. 

Amber B 20:17

Totally. Have you read the book 4,000 Weeks? 

Monica Packer 20:20

Yes.

Amber B 20:21

Yeah. It reminds me of that concept. It's like the thesis of that book is essentially like there'll always be more to do. And so we like have to just like make peace with the fact that there's always going to be more to do and not get wrapped up in it. I hear a lot of that with that like perfectionism idea. I think sometimes people think, I mean, it kind of relates to what your client was saying where she's like, I'm not a perfectionist. Look at all these piles around me. Like a perfectionist would have like a beautiful clean space. And what you're saying is like, actually like that is like perfectionism being manifested because you can't do anything unless it's going to be perfect. And so you just don't do anything at all. 

Monica Packer 20:58

That's right. Yeah. And I think people are so surprised when they hear they're a perfectionist because we have this one stereotype in our minds. This is what we talked about in our first episode together. So they can go back to listen to that. But the nutshell is perfectionism is a spectrum. And what it really is, is about misplacing your identity on your outcomes. And either you're on this overproductive, overachieving end where your outcomes, you're always in that hustle, that hamster wheel of proving yourself for your outcomes, or you stay in the sidelines. Because either it's not the right time or money, or you don't think you'll do it or you'll fail. And most times people bounce back and forth between. So some people may find they procrastinate certain tasks, but never others. Never others. But they're still identifying themselves as a procrastinator because that's all they can see is this area or areas of their lives where they are procrastinators. So that's another thing to kind of think of as not one area is going to define you as a person too.

Amber B 21:55

Yeah. Well, and what you said earlier was so important is even by just doing that 10 minutes of that task, you start to shift that identity from like, I am a procrastinator. This is how I handle things to like, I can trust myself. I can follow through because I'm having little bits of evidence that I'm changing in this aspect. And we all know our identity creates our behaviors. And so if we can start to shift that identity, how we see ourselves, how we feel about ourselves, then that shift starts to shift our behavior, which is so good. I've heard you talk about revenge, bedtime procrastination. And can you explain that concept? Because I think it's something that so many people are going to relate to. 

Monica Packer 22:32

Yeah, this is really floating around on the internet. I would say maybe two years ago, it's actually mistranslation of people who were talking about in China, but essentially it's us committing revenge on our daytime responsibilities by procrastinating bedtime. And this is something that was huge for me. Like I'm on this show, not because I never procrastinate. I'm on the show because I do procrastinate and I've had significant areas of my life that were a major problem this way. And this was one of them for me. Actually sleep, my sleep issues is what got me into habit formation in the first place. I didn't think I could be a habit person because I thought it was only one type, that I was no longer going to be that type. That was a type A perfectionist, not the underachieving kind. And I was like, I'm not a habit person. But as I came to realize my delaying sleep every night, because it was the only time I had for myself, because I would get swept up in self-care or productivity or just feeling kind of angry almost, that my daytime was just never a second unclaimed by my responsibilities. That was the only time I could choose for myself how I wanted it. That was interfering with every other part of my life. And I had to work on that majorly in very significant ways, but it actually started quite small. And it started with me realizing what purpose that revenge bedtime procrastination was actually serving for me. Because, and this is something I could talk to you for a whole hour about, but I'll try to keep it short. Any kind of bad habit we have from numbing out to procrastination is serving a purpose. And that may seem weird, but all habits are helpers. Even the bad habits, they're trying to help. They're just doing so in ways that hurt. So to really work on it, you have to figure out how is staying up later or procrastinating this thing or whatever bad habit I'm working on, how does staying on my phone, how is it actually trying to help me? And for me, it was what I already identified. It was the only time I could claim for myself and choose for myself what I wanted to do. And it was time for myself. And once I knew that, then I could better work on it because it wasn't just down to lack of willpower or self-discipline. It wasn't an identity issue. It was just a circumstance issue that I could then work on fixing. 

Amber B 24:51

And so then once you recognize that, what was the solution for you? Did you start to incorporate more of that throughout your day so that you weren't so pent up or walk through what the solution was and how you feel like you got to the other side of that? Because I know there are some women listening who are like, oh gosh, that's me. I currently do that. I sit and scroll or I sit and do all these things and I go to bed super late. And it's because I feel like it's the only time that I have freedom in my day. And so that's how I claim it. So I think, how did you solve that? And maybe that might be similar for somebody else. 

Monica Packer 25:25

So I already mentioned getting information about it. How is it trying to help? But do so neutrally too. We already talked about us trying to serve our purpose. And I just want to point out, there's nothing morally superior about going to bed early and waking up early. For me personally, that's the way my life functions better. So that's why I choose it, even though my entire life, this wasn't just a mom issue. When I became a mom, my entire life I have been a night owl. But I can see now as more of a pattern of still trying to procrastinate because of those same issues. Right? So once you understand and you do so neutrally, there's a twofold approach or maybe a two prong approach. You can, one, design a nighttime routine that is something you genuinely look forward to. It's not about nine o'clock or 9:30 or 10:30, like the alarm went off, I'm in bed. No, you need to have a routine. It can be very simple. It can be two or three steps that is around bedtime that helps you wind down, that helps prepare your brain and body. My brain was wired to stay up. My brain was wired to move through the, get my second wind, move through that block and just keep going until the wee hours of the morning. So there was some significant retraining, but part of that was having this routine that helped prepare my brain and body for bedtime. But it was something that I genuinely looked forward to. And that began with me having People Magazine on my nightstand. I don't know about you, Amber, but I was not allowed to read People Magazine growing up.

Amber B 26:57

That's foreboding. It was. 

Monica Packer 26:58

Yes, yes, it was foreboding. So I got a subscription and this was major for me because we were on a super tight budget at this time. We got a subscription. I put on my nightstand. That's where I was allowed to read it. 

Amber B 27:12

I love it. 

Monica Packer 27:12

So that was the first step.

Amber B 27:13

It's like the yuck and the yum together. I love that. 

Monica Packer 27:16

And I didn't really know it at the time, but now I can put language to why that works. But I started with just that. So I looked forward to getting my bed because I got to read about my celebrity gossip. And now I don't need that anymore. I have different things that I do, but there's no shame in that. It became a family subscription. All my kids love the crosswords. But we had to stop once my daughter got afraid of serial killers that she would read about in every single magazine. But anyway, that's how I started. But then it grew from there. I genuinely look forward to nighttime routine. Now it's like I watch YouTube videos while I do my skincare. And I love watching my British manners getting renovated. I just am so into it. And that helps repair me. And then once I'm in bed, I journal just a quick line for my kids. And then I read till I fall asleep. It's very simple. But I look forward to it all day. It may look different for each person. For a while, it was me and Brad watching a show together at night. But now we have to go to bed so early. I'm sad shows aren't part of our lives right now, but that's where we are. And then that's one fold approach. Or the first prong rather is to design a nighttime routine you actually look forward to.

And the other prong is daytime. You already nailed it, Amber. To carve out even small moments where you can claim your time, where you are doing something for you. I talk about this with numbing behaviors in general. But when we are getting swept up in numbing behaviors, it's a sign that we are pulling not just from an empty well, but an empty leaking well. Those numbing behaviors are us just trying to pour more in, but there's cracks in the foundation. So everything we pour in just leaches right out. That's what happens with the nighttime. We're pouring, pouring, pouring, but there's cracks and nothing's going to stay. So if we can during the day kind of put spackle into those cracks in just small moments, then whatever else we do is going to gradually help us refill that well. So we have something to pull from. And this can be as simple as going for a walk around the neighborhood in the morning, or literally touching grass for five minutes in the afternoon, or listening to an audio book while you lay on your bed. It's very simple. Listening to your music that you like in the car. I'm thinking so small and simple that people would be surprised it even matters, but those moments add up.

Amber B 29:35

Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's something just about the intentionality. Like you said, even something so simple as playing the music that you like in the car, it's like just communicating to yourself that you matter, that you don't always put other people's needs above your own, and that you matter as a person too. You're on your own list. Yeah, you're on your list. And it's a really simple shift, but it's communicating so much to yourself about how important you are. I had a question, and I don't know if you have much to say about this. How do you think phones play a role in this? Because I really feel like these little carve-out moments that you're speaking to often get very co-opted by our phones. And I feel like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, we didn't have that, and so it may have looked a little different. So what advice do you have about phones, how phones play into this, how we can be thinking about phones in conjunction with our habits? 

Monica Packer 30:27

I would recommend everyone read Nir Eyal's book, Hooked, as well as Indistractable. Those are two great books on this alone. And this is a great way for us to neutralize the behavior, because the truth is these devices are literally designed to hook us. 

Amber B 30:44

Totally. Yeah.

Monica Packer 30:45

One of the reasons I find we can get so lost in our screens is because they require so little energy. Yeah. And it's kind of weird when you realize, but giving back to ourselves, like putting a spackle in those cracks in the well and filling the well, even those acts require energy. Even if they sound good, like talking to your friends on Marco Polo, or reading their book, or touching grass, or going for the walk, they all require energy that is higher than just reaching for your phone. Yeah. So when we understand that, I think it can help us remove the shame, but also still notice the patterns. Yeah. So we've already talked about how all behaviors have patterns. And so same with how we see ourselves. So start just tracking. Are there certain times of day? Are there certain… Am I avoiding things? Are there triggers in my environment that are making that happen? Is it down to just a general pattern of me being exhausted? 

Amber B 31:48

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Monica Packer 31:49

And a lot of times our fix to… Well, all times our fixes with “bad behaviors. I put that in quotes, because again, we're trying to remove the shame around them. Sure. We do it both in the moment, and we also do a bigger picture. So in the moment, we try to disrupt the pattern. We notice what's leading in to me being on the phone. And a lot of times, these are feelings. They're internal. So someone who is not a touchy person, I struggle to know what my emotions are. This has been a big journey for me to recognize, oh, I'm feeling something. I'm actually feeling something. So what is that thing? It's getting curious. Yeah. Or there's really… Sometimes there's really circumstantial ones that are so much easier to identify. Oh, my kids yell. So I escape to my room. Or I'm really stressed out at work. So I'm finding myself searching online instead of doing all the tasks I need to do. So no matter what, pay attention to what's happening before and try to disrupt that pattern. And then even in the moment, you can replace the behavior. So even if you've already been on your phone for 20 minutes, and you meant to just check something really quick, you can still stop then and switch the behavior with something that's going to better serve the emotion that you were feeling or whatever else that trigger brought up for you. So that's an in the moment thing. 

And that just takes a general awareness again. And just working out in a way that's gentle. Because as we're reforming our habits, we're also reforming the way we see ourselves. And the way we see ourselves will help us reform our habits. It's a cycle that feeds itself. And then the big picture is oftentimes you realize… I'll give an example. But oftentimes you realize you need something more, like more support. I had a client that we were working on her phone habit. And it was just all-consuming. And it was really tricky for her to identify what the patterns were, because it was just everywhere. All the time everywhere. And so we're like, okay, how about as we're figuring this out, we work on other habits to help you put the phone in a different place. Like have a home for your phone in your house that your phone is out of your pocket, and it's in that home. Or you charge it off your nightstand. So there are good habits you can put in place that help make the being on your phone harder. That's called raising the hurdle. Just like if you're going to race over a hurdle, you raise it. You make it harder to do. But things just kind of weren't working. And we finally had a really powerful coaching session where we realized what was at stake was just being a mom in general for her was extremely triggering because of her childhood. She had a very traumatizing childhood and parents that were not present. And trying to stay regulated for her kids was a Herculean effort moment to moment because she didn't have that modeled for her. And so she was always pushing against these old patterns that had become intergenerational patterns of parenting. And she was showing up for her kids in the way she wanted, but it took so much energy that that was her way of regulating, of coping. And it was also like she was so exhausted that it was the easiest thing for her to do. So our bigger picture solution actually was therapy.

Amber B 35:05

Yeah. Like getting to the root of it. 

Monica Packer 35:06

Yeah. She needed more support. That support could look like therapy or coaching. It could look like more support in the home. It can look like shifting how the dynamics are in your home and who is doing what. So not everything house-related is on your shoulders. All that invisible labor that we don't see that's undervalued by society, the mental load that goes with it. And that's a bigger picture task too. I understand that could be a whole other podcast episode for us, but that can't be removed. Like we can't just isolate, oh, just work on the actual behavior for most of our bad habits, including phones, because it's always so much bigger. Habits go deeper. And this is one of those. So stay in the moment, getting curious, trying to interrupt the patterns, replace the phone with something else that's more supportive is important, but also consider the bigger picture solutions that you also need help to work on. 

Amber B 36:03

Yeah. I appreciate you bringing in the nuance in this situation because I think a lot of times the self-help industry has a lot of value and a lot of benefit with this idea that we can only change ourselves. We can't change other people. That's all we can control. And when you can take control of your own life and you lean into the power that you have to make a change, that can be very powerful. But I think sometimes it lacks the nuance of what you just brought in, that we're all operating within a system. And the system can make it easier or harder. Of course you have power as an individual, but the system controls things as well. And so it's not an either or, it's not a individual has no power and we just have to try to change the system. And it's not the individual has all the power and the system doesn't matter. And you should just be able to pull yourself up with your bootstraps. It's a combination of both and recognizing we take control of the things we can take control, but understanding that you work within a system and there are reasons for the things that you do that may be outside of you. Not to say you can't change, but to understand it a little bit more. And I just appreciate that nuance so much because I think it's lacking sometimes when we get into the health self-help industry. You know what I mean? 

Monica Packer 37:10

I'll tell you why. It's because certainty sells. We all want the black and white answers and we also want the black and white reasons, you know, but it ultimately doesn't lead to sustainable change the way self-help is sold. So, I mean, I'm going to be honest. It's a lot easier to sell certainty for me. It's a harder market, but it's the real, you know, if you want a real change, you got to know it's both. 

Amber B 37:36

Yeah. Well, and the other thing that I have heard you say over and over again, and maybe not so many words, is avoiding shame as a tactic for change, right? You lean a lot into non-judgment, into curiosity, into noticing when things happen, but not labeling them as wrong or bad or immoral and getting curious and working from that place to make a change versus from where a lot of people tend towards is the guilt and the shame and thinking that that's going to really shift behavior, which it doesn't. 

Monica Packer 38:06

It doesn't. And I think we are so, we've all, it's like the matrix. We're all living in this world that we don't know we're living in where we think the only way to change is to be harsh and strict and hard on ourselves and persevere it and have grit. If you've actually read the book Grit by Angela Duckworth, it helps you understand what grit really is and it's not being cruel to yourself. Yeah. And there's so much research about compassion, Kristin Neff, Brene Brown, there's other researchers, they base their research off of that shows that shame inhibits change. Yeah. It literally doesn't work. Okay. And compassion is the way we do that. The way I like to frame it for people, because people are terrified of letting go of shame. They're terrified of doing things differently, of being kind to themselves, because they think that means they won't change in the ways they want. They think compassion equates apathy and it does not. It does not. So the way I phrase this for them is shame is the fear that you cannot change and compassion is the faith that you absolutely can. 

Amber B 39:11

I love that. 

Monica Packer 39:12

So when you apply compassion to yourself, again, it's not about, acceptance does not equate apathy. It's not about being like, well, I guess this is just who I am. Like take me or leave me, my way or the highway. Like it's not that. It's changing in a way where you are getting the full picture. Like we just talked about where it's not about just self blame or a discipline issue, or like you just don't have it together. It's seeing the full picture and working with that picture.

I have kids who are, I have several kids who have special needs, like I said, and one of the most freeing ways I've been able to show up as their mom is to accept the limitations we have. Instead of always fighting against them or just trying to like grit my way through it in the ways that we've been taught works. And accepting we have to do things differently as a family than others do. I have been able to do that in a way where we actually can, instead of always trying to fight against it. So compassion works similarly. We're looking at the full picture. We're understanding our own histories, our own tendencies. We are accepting ourselves in different ways, but we're also striving for more in ways that actually help us get to that more. 

Amber B 40:23

Yeah. So powerful. Shame is the fear that you cannot change. Compassion is the faith that you can. Is that it? Did I get it? 

Monica Packer 40:31

Yeah. 

Amber B 40:31

I love that. I thought that was really, really powerful. And it reminds me of, are you familiar with the Buddhist principle of the second arrow? 

Monica Packer 40:39

No, I'm not. 

Amber B 40:40

It's the concept that, you know, if you get shot with an arrow that there's pain that's associated with it and you know, there's not much you can do about it. But then what happens next is we twist the arrow or we like adjust the arrow and we cause further pain after that first arrow. And that is equated to the wishing it was not that way. The like, you know, trying to like, just be mad about the fact that you're in this circumstance or situation that you're in. Right. And I think what you're pointing to is you don't have control over the first arrow. A lot of times you have children with special needs, right. That is what it is. Wishing it wasn't going to change is only going to cause more pain. And so there's this beautiful place of acceptance of like, this is what it is. And you know, I can't change the first arrow, but I can prevent the pain of the second arrow by not sitting in that place of just wishing it wasn't this place because that's never going to change anything. And so instead we accept it and you move forward from with what you can control in that situation. And I've always found that really empowering because there is a lot of first arrows that a lot of us deal with that are crappy and like, I wish it didn't happen and are hard and cause pain and cause suffering, but we can limit the extra suffering that we apply onto that suffering with how we choose to deal it and whether we choose to fight against it and wish it wasn't the case and stay in that place of anger or we lean into acceptance and then change what it is that we can control and change. 

Monica Packer 42:07

And that's been true about habits in general for me. The reason why women must do habits differently is because of invisible labor. You know, our lives are different than men's and this isn't about trying to do gender studies or trying to be political or anything like that. It's just the fact. I mean, our time is limited. We get interrupted more. We don't have predictability. We have lower energy. And this is studied by researchers for decades. So that's not just me saying this anecdotally. And you know what, sometimes I just feel real mad about that. It's not fair. And I think things should change. And we can't afford to wait that long. Those kind of changes are going to take a long time, even just in our own homes. And I feel like I'm in a place where that has happened and it has taken a long time, but I'm so grateful for that change, but it still took time. I couldn't afford to wait for things to be better. I had to work with what I had and do things differently. So acceptance is a choice. It's not a passive thing. Acceptance is a choice. And that's hand in hand with the compassion piece. And I love the second arrow picture. 

Amber B 43:09

And what a beautiful, again, bringing in that concept of what it is that you can control and controlling that and recognizing that there is a system that contributes to that. And you mentioned invisible labor. And do we want to change it so that invisible labor is less and mental load is more equally shared between partners? Of course, yes. But if we wait to feel the way that we want to feel and to take power in our own lives until that changes in society, like you said, we can't afford to wait that long. So in my mind, it's a both and. Yes. What can I control and what power can I take in my own life? And can we impact change on a greater societal level to be more aware of invisible labor, to value women's work more, to push forward more equality between partners and how you're splitting tasks up and how you're splitting up mental load? Yes. So it's a yes and. It's not one or the other. It's both. And I think that that's really powerful to come from that place. 

Monica Packer 44:05

And with that both, this is another thing that's not easy to sell. Change takes time. Yeah. Right? And talking about habits, but also our family systems, our society systems, it takes time. And I think why we are misled that shame is going to help is because shame is like a rapid boil on a stove. It is fiery and it is strong, but it doesn't last. And compassion and acceptance like put together, like that's more of like a simmer. Yeah. Okay. So there's still a lot happening, but it's not as visible. It's not as like enticing. But when you remember that good things take time, just like sauce on a stove, you're going to go more for the simmer instead of trying to boil the heck out of your sauce.

Amber B 44:50

Yeah. I love that. I love that metaphor. So a lot of my listeners often procrastinate in their health, right? That's the context that a lot of them maybe are very familiar with. I'm sure some of the other things relate, but a lot of people are sitting here having a desire to change things in their health, having a desire to create more healthy habits in terms of their nutrition or their working out. And they just can't seem to make themselves do it consistently. If I think we've probably already talked about this in general, but I'd love to bring it into a step-by-step process that people who find themselves in that space can get started to implement. If you had a woman who comes to you and is like, I want to work out and I just don't, or I want to eat healthy and I just don't, or I want to start walking and I just don't, where would you start with her as step number one? 

Monica Packer 45:40

I always start with history. 

Amber B 45:41

Oh, I love that.

Monica Packer 45:42

What's your history with this particular habit? 

Amber B 45:45

And why do you start there? 

Monica Packer 45:47

It gives us information on what patterns are at play. It also gives us information on her internalized history and how she sees herself too, because that's hugely at play in ways that people almost always overlook. So if we take exercise, for example, maybe you have someone who's always like, I want to do CrossFit. I pay for the classes and I never show up. And then, or like when I do, I'm so bad at it because I don't go very consistently. So they just have this whole history of not going, of being a non-finisher, of not being good at something. And so I always start with the history to better understand. And then we move into more forward thinking. How do you want this habit to feel? So movement, how do you want to feel when you're moving your body? Maybe this will give us more information that CrossFit is awesome. And she loves watching those documentaries, which you know, I do. As someone who's told you this, I've watched every CrossFit documentary and never been in a single class. 

Amber B 46:45

They're so good.

Monica Packer 46:48

Never stepped foot in a class, but I love the documentaries. But maybe she's like, actually, I want exercise to feel calming. That's what I need the most right now. I need calming. Or maybe someone's like, I need to purge. I need to purge all these emotions. I need to punch things. I need a boxing class. So then they're able to figure out, actually, I've been working with a prescription or a should or something even I thought I wanted, but now I realize I actually don't. So we start with the feelings. What do you actually want this to feel like? And that helps us know what kind of exercise. And then from there, and I'm being exercise specific, but the same pattern can be applied to other habits. So history, feelings. Then we cast a vision of the ideal. I ask, well, on an ideal day, what would this habit look like? How would you ideally want to exercise? So let's say this is the gentle person. And maybe she decided, I just want to go for walks. Like that is it for me. That will be me moving my body in ways I don't. And it will also serve the need I actually have of wanting to feel calm. So ideally, I would like to walk 30 minutes a day. And that may sound really doable even to her if she hasn't done it, but if she's not doing it, that's going to require a lot of energy. So it's still a good ideal, but we don't often have ideal days. So what we do is we also design as part of the ideal. We design a baseline and the baseline is the smallest and simplest version of the ideal that she can do on her less than ideal days. And it's got to be so small and simple that you even wonder it counts. So for her, she's like, I'll go on a walk around the block. Okay. Or maybe I'll do a five minute walk. And she's like, that's nothing. Okay. But that's a baseline day with baselines in place. We would start with the baselines. Sometimes we have to start with ideals and that's fine, but we just will know we're paying prices for it and our energy and our time or in other ways, maybe we'll just have to know we're not going to be able to prioritize our breakfast for that day or whatever it may be or asleep as much.

But ideally we actually start with the baseline and then we build from there and building happens quite organically. Like we talked about momentum as ever increasing energy. If you start with a baseline and you only have a five minute day, that's all you can do today. You do five minutes, but hey, what do you know? You can do one more block and you do eight minutes. You're going to feel like a superhero that day. And that creates the consistency you need because habits still do live and die by consistency. So you have the consistency in place that allows you to build in the moment to do a little more than you thought you could, but also over time and people get to the ideals faster than they would think if they're starting with the baselines. And also they always have the baselines to fall back on. So the consistency remains. And the cool thing about baselines is baselines build too. So eventually this woman, her baseline is not going to be a five minute walk or a walk around the block. It's going to be like a 15 or 20 minute walk. She can easily do that or her ideals going to grow. And an hour long walk is like no big deal at all. She looks forward to it. It's easy for her. And her baseline is now 30 minutes. So things change. That's part of the flexibility too here. So that's how I'd help them design that, that kind of step process. 

Amber B 50:05

I love it. That was, that was awesome. And some of the things that I heard you say in there that I thought were really, I want to repeat, you said habits. What do you say? Live and die by consistency. What did you say? Yeah. And I, and I think that that point is so important when we're trying to counteract our brain saying, well, that doesn't count because that is very common. It's like when you said it's, it's so small, it seems like it doesn't even count. Like why would a five minute walk do anything? And the answer to that is, well, one, five minutes is more than zero. And what we're really looking for is the consistency. And yes. And, and so five minutes like builds the consistency in a way that zero minutes doesn't build consistency. And I think that that helps us can help us like challenge our brain a little bit when we do go to that place of like, well, does this really even matter? Like, is it really even changing anything? And we can remind ourselves, yes, because what it is doing is building the consistency. And I think, I think people get stuck and you countered it so beautifully in this idea that like my, my, my, I call it floor and ceiling. You call it ideal and baseline is always going to be the same. And you're like, no, it's not. It will naturally shift and it will naturally grow. And that's just a natural part of like momentum and motivation and things. But we have to get started for that process to happen. 

Monica Packer 51:18

And sometimes you have a true, I call them OG baseline days. And I know that means original gangster, not original, like us millennials think it does, but you know, like sometimes you're like, I am back to my original baseline today. Like today it is, I just have five minutes, but so naturally, like if you have that faith in this long process, we talked about this summer, it's all going to grow and, and, and honestly faster than you think. And I would just add to consistency. Consistency is not rigidity. Consistency is doing your best most of the time over time. Okay. Your best is allowed to change day to day and not in a passive way. This is still being honest with yourself. Okay. And then most of the time that's being consistent. If you hit it four times out of seven days, if you want a daily habit, you're actually still being consistent. And over time we're playing the long game here.

Amber B 52:05

Yeah. I think I heard Jodi Morris say one time, like the, the, the standard is more often than not. And I love that. I was like more often than not, I do this more often than not. This is what I do. And those are, those are habits. Like I would do this every single day. I always do this. It's more often than not, this is what I'm doing. And I think that that gives us that balance of grace and, uh, and push that that is that beautiful space of growth. When we get too much push or too much grace, we don't, we don't grow. But when we have that, that balance between the two, that is where growth really tends to happen. Okay. Um, last question for you circling back around to your book, Sticky Habits, which comes out when? 

Monica Packer 52:45

Comes out September 8th, but it's ready for pre-order right now. 

Amber B 52:48

You can pre-order right now. And we're going to talk about, um, how you're going to do that. What, as you're writing this and as you're putting this out into the world, I imagine that you as an author have an experience of feeling, um, something that you want your readers to leave with. Right. And you want like an experience that they're having that they leave with that they reflect back. And they're like, when I read that book, I did this, or I felt this, or what is it? What, what do you want them to walk away with? 

Monica Packer 53:16

I want them to walk with a renewed belief in themselves. And that sounds so again, touchy feely. And they're like, I'm not a touchy feely person. It's a surprising answer. But when I see this, what I'm really saying is I want them to believe that they can change. Yeah. So much of the systems they're in the water, they're swimming in their obstacles, their circumstances, their histories have made them believe that they aren't, they can't change that they're the one broken link in this chain, that they're the only one, all the self-help advice doesn't actually help. And I want them to leave empowered knowing they can change.

Amber B 53:55

That's awesome. I love it. Okay. Tell us about pre-orders first. Will you explain to people why pre-orders are so important? Because I learned this recently and I didn't understand this as someone who's never written a book and then how people can pre-order. 

Monica Packer 54:09

Pre-orders matter because it signals to the publisher that this book is going to do better than they thought or as good as they thought. And they hopefully are more willing to put in any money to marketing. First time authors like me, we market everything ourselves. It's all out of our own pocket. So to have any little boost, even if they're like, we're going to actually advertise it on Amazon or going to talk to more booksellers at these fairs or behind the scenes helps tremendously, but they will only do that if it looks like a sure win, because that's the name of the industry, right? That's the name of the game. So that's why it matters. And they can pre-order my book at stickyhabitsbook.com. And we have some pre-order bonuses too that are, I think, really special. And one of them is going to help a lot with identity piece. I have a whole course on that, that they get. And then they're also going to get two other great bonuses, including a virtual launch party and a listening guide for my podcast of what pairs well with the book. But I think it always stands alone. These books stand alone, but I love being able to say thank you in that way to people who are willing to literally put their money on the line, saying like, I believe in this book. 

Amber B 55:20

Yes. I have pre-ordered. So I really encourage you to go and pre-order and make sure that you get your copy of Sticky Habits. Like I said, I just recently learned how important pre-orders are to signal to the publisher that this is something that's really important that people are interested in and are curious about it. And so I've made a commitment to pre-order books for people who I want to support and who matter. And I think this, like what you have done, for those of you guys who don't know, I've known Monica for like almost 10 years, like a really long time. She was the very first podcast I was ever interviewed on. And so I've seen you grow so much in your ability to communicate, your ability to really niche down to what it is that you can really help people with, to craft your message, to craft your ability to be able to coach other women. And I've just watched you throughout the years be able to get to this place. 

Monica Packer 56:10

And you've helped. I have to insert that. You've helped me so much with that. 

Amber B 56:14

And I just, this book is going to be, it's like your Magnus Opus right now. It's like all of the things that are the goodness of Monica and the wisdom that she brings and this thing that she's thought about for years and years and years and years and figured out how to communicate is all going to be put into this book. So I really encourage you to go and pre-order it. We'll link it in the show notes as well. And then you'll want to find Monica on, on Instagram as well. Is that the best place to find you? 

Monica Packer 56:39

Yes. As well as my podcast About Progress.

Amber B 56:42

Yeah. Yes. About Progress.

Monica Packer 56:43

Which you've been a guest on, I believe three, two or three times as well. Yeah.

Amber B 56:47

Yeah. Super fun. Awesome, Monica. This has been fantastic. I'm very excited to have this conversation about procrastination and go out into the world and habits. And I'm just really excited about your, your new book.

Monica Packer 56:58

Thank you. I mean, you are the epitome of a cheerleader for a friend. I mean, it's, it's definitely collaboration, not competition with you.

Amber B 57:06

Totally. Yeah. 

Monica Packer 57:06

So I appreciate you so much.

Amber B 57:08

Highly recommend Monica, all of her work, her book, and thanks for being here on the podcast. 

Monica Packer 57:12

Thank you. Thank you for having, thank you for having me and thank you to your listeners.

Amber B 57:16

Okay. After listening to that episode, doesn't that make you more excited to read the book? I love Monica. I love her perspective. I love what she's bringing out into the world. And I love that she came to this conversation with grace, with nuance, with compassion. I think sometimes that is lacking, like she said, in the self-help space where it's just like, this is a solution and you just need to do A, B and C and just come on and just gird your loins and just do it. And I think Monica is such a fresh breath, breath of fresh air in this industry. And it really does a fantastic job of meeting you where you're at and then compassionately and gently helping you to become a better version of yourself, which is exactly what I'm all about here at Biceps After Babies Radio. 

If you want to pre-order the book, you can go to stickyhabitsbook.com or you can go to her website aboutprogress.com. I have pre-ordered it. I'd love it if you pre-order it as well. And we can get into this conversation about habits because I think it is such an amazing conversation to be having because habits really create your life. They create your outcomes and they create who you actually are and what you do on a day-to-day basis. That wraps up this episode of Biceps After Babies Radio. I'm Amber. Now go out and be strong because remember my friend, you can do anything.

Outro

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